Concerning Ents

[Tsayn]

I'm still looking for an explicit quote as to "Treebeard's DOB" from the extra volumes. Still no luck, but plenty of pages remain, and I've got three economy-size bottles of Visine at the ready!

However, I found something in The Silmarillion that might be an indirect hint, but I'm extremely doubtful. Nevertheless, please indulge me.

As to the other three "Free Peoples", the order of true awakening, not creation, is...

1) Elves
2) Dwarves
3) Men

Recall the start of "The Lore of Living Creatures" ...

"Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
First name the four, the free peoples:
Eldest of all, the elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn; old as mountains;
Man ther mortal; master of horses;

Assume for the moment (which I really never like to do, except every now and again) that this is indeed the order of awakening. Elves, Dwarves and Men are in sequence. Why not look for evidence of the Ents awakening between Dwarves and Men?

Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realm of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees. Then for a while the world had moonlight, and many things stirred and woke that had waited long in the Sleep of Yavanna.

Chances are that what awoke with the Moon were simply other olvar and kelvar, but I post this here for your consideration.

( ... squeeze, drip, drip, blink ... squeeze, drip, drip, blink ... dab, dab ... )

Back to work!

[TulKas]

I don't recall where it says Elves taught the Ents to speak...

[dried-mango]

In the 'Movie Talk' section:

Here's the quote (ROTK, Many Partings):
...And Celeborn said: 'I do not know, Eldest.'

There, Celeborn addresses Treebeard as 'Eldest'. Now could someone please explain why this is so? Especially if Celeborn was one of the original Elves who awoke at Cuivanen, since no mention is given of him being 'born'.

This can only be if Treebeard was older than Celeborn, and therefore older than Cirdan as well.

[Tsayn]

Celeborn is not a "Cuiviénen Elf". He is the son of Galadhon and grandson of Elmo - not the muppet, but the younger "brother" of Olwë and Elwë.

"Eldest" may be a title of respect. The only thing I know for sure about Treebeard's age at this point is that he is the eldest of the Ents.

But I'm still looking ...

[dried-mango]

Wow, whaddaya know, you DO learn something new everyday!

Where did you obtain this info from Tsayn? First time I've ever heard of those names... Elmo, hehe.

*pictures little furry red creature scampering around ME*

[Zakath]

Unfinished Tales holds the tale of Tolkien's ever-changing vision of Celeborn's parentage. He devoted a lot of time and thought to the relationship of Galadriel and Celeborn. It's a good read because it sheds some light on what happened in the Second Age.

[Tingilinde]

i think that the ents (or shepherds of trees) were created after Yavanna discovered that Aule had created the dwarves. (before the awakening of the elves) but, in waiting for the firstborn did Yavanna not put lots of her creations to sleep so they could awaken for the elves in a spring-like way? it would make sense therefor that she would put the ents to sleep also (or illuvatar would) also because illuvatar was adamant that the elves would be the firstborn. (which is why the dwarves were put to sleep) theoretically the ents could have been awakened with Yavanna's other creations at the same time as the elves. it was the elves who were very enthusiastic about language and making words for everything about them so it makes sense that they would teach the ents their language (treebeard said something about elves wanting to talk to everything)
just a thought

[ThingolOfDoriath]

What I wouldn't do for a 60 minute interview with J Tolkien....

[Tingilinde]

oooh i wish!!!
*contemplates whether he'd be in Valinor...*

[TulKas]

Not unless he's an Elf or Ainu

[Folcwine]

I'm sure an exception would be made in his case.

If any Man deserved to go West, it would be He.

[Beorn]

I wonder if Celeborn and Galadriel just kept it together for the politics... Seems like it'd be hard to keep the spark going for two ages.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

I wonder if Celeborn and Galadriel just kept it together for the politics... Seems like it'd be hard to keep the spark going for two ages.

Hehe...That'll be a challange allright.

But seriously, I dont think love fades in Tolkiens Universe...especially not amongst the elves who have remarcable memory "capacity". In other words their memory doesn't fade and neither does their love..(sorta)

[TulKas]

So ppl who get divorced are doing it because of memory loss...??

[dried-mango]

But seriously, I dont think love fades in Tolkiens Universe...especially not amongst the elves who have remarcable memory "capacity". In other words their memory doesn't fade and neither does their love..(sorta)

I would think that memory had nothing to do with it; the Elves were by nature more emotionally sensitive than Men and were probably more capable of sustaining strong emotions (ie. love) over great spans of time, unlike our more fickle hearts (and brief passions driven by lust ).

[Beorn]

Since humans have a time frame to work with, due to mortality, time is, literally, of the essence. But with Elves, where time is of no real concern, probably don't see the passage of time or pay attention to it at all, so it is relative, I suppose. Immortality would become a terrible bore if time passed as it does too mortals. Passage of time to an Elf is probably akin to that of a mescaline experience, simply doesn't matter.

[dried-mango]

But with Elves, where time is of no real concern, probably don't see the passage of time or pay attention to it at all, so it is relative, I suppose.
[...]
Passage of time to an Elf is probably akin to that of a mescaline experience, simply doesn't matter.

Perhaps one shouldn't say that the passage of time 'doesn't matter' to all Elves, since the weight of the passing years eventually took their toll on the Elves of ME. They grew 'weary' of their time in ME and longed for Aman. Of course the case might be different with the Elves who dwelt in Aman and they may be, as Beorn stated, truly unconcerned with the passage of time. It's interesting to note that only in the land of 'forever' could the immortal Elves be free from the spiritual weariness inflicted by 'time'.

On the subject of Elven love, I realised that even in this capacity Elves were not immune from love's many pitfalls. In Sil. we have examples of love lost, faded passions and estrangement between married couples. Feanor and Eol's failed relationships with their spouses illustrate this. The presence of jealousy, lust, possessiveness and selfishness in the Elven psyche made them almost similar to Men as far as matters of the heart were concerned. So perhaps in love Elves weren't so different from Men after all.

[Beorn]

Yes, I've always felt that the Elves of The Silmarillion had more humanity and exhibited our basic flaws, while in LOTR all we see is through the hobbit's eyes, faded mystic demi-gods.

[Ruth]

I wonder if Celeborn and Galadriel just kept it together for the politics... Seems like it'd be hard to keep the spark going for two ages.

I wonder if that had something to do with her leaving for Aman way before he did...the separation did not seem too burdensome to them. Although as soon as Galadriel left, Celeborn gave up the throne, so maybe she was the one who really ran things in Lothlorien and he just played along to please her....

[Zakath]

Well, we know that Galadriel was the one running things in Lórien. Celeborn was probably just the leader of the army.

What that says about their relationship I'm not sure.

[Elessar]

Let's not forget who held the Elvish Ring of Power. We can see who wore the pants in their relationship.

[TulKas]

Well of course the woman wore the jewelry

[dried-mango]

Reconsider, for Galadriel was the only female to wear an Elvish Ring of Power, or any ring of power for that matter.

[Beorn]

Heh heh... I just imagined Galadriel as one of the Python's pepperpots. Terry Jone's should have been casted in Cate Blanchett's stead, with maybe Michael Palin as Celeborn.

[Folcwine]

This lembas contains only the finest crunchy frog.
Lightly killed, steamed, and lovingly frosted with glucose.

[TulKas]

Not to mention... Ugh. Sorry, I've been away from the school's biology lab too long

Formaldahyde?

[Tsayn]

Getting back to the original topic of Ents ...

I've quoted the first paragraph before, but for some inexplicable reason never payed much attention the second ...

[...] Then Manwë sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Ilúvatar. Then it seemed to Manwë that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that though he had heard them he had not heeded before. And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.

Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: "O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: 'Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.' ... " [...]

In light of this previously "negelcted" paragraph (most notably "When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also ..."), does the following quote, which at first I thought might not be of relevance, indeed further support the Elves - Dwarves - Ents - Men sequence?

[...] Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realm of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees. Then for a while the world had moonlight, and many things stirred and woke that had waited long in the Sleep of Yavanna. [...]

Thoughts, anyone?

[Zakath]

"Many things" in that case did not apply to trees, IMO. Note that Nan Elmoth's trees grew enormous while illuminated only by starlight. I think the Ents probably awoke right after the Elves, as indicated by the "then" you mentioned.

[TulKas]

It says, "When the Children awake, then", not "The Children will awake, then". IMO the former means at the same moment

[Tsayn]

Hey, at this point, I'm just throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks.

After three months or so of looking at this topic, a final and definitive answer would be awfully nice.

[Zakath]

Heh...wishful thinking, Tsayn, I'd have to say...Without a clear-cut defining statement, at any rate.

[Tsayn]

Zakath, I've pretty much reached the conclusion that you're right about wishful thinking.

Anyway, I'm a little upset at myself for not finding this before. Though it seems to be only an exploration of thought ...

{Note added by Humphrey Carpenter} [The draft ends here. At the top, Tolkien has written, not very legibly, a note in pencil:]

No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulë in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwë) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna.

While this has no real bearing on the timeline of the Ents' birth, it does add some confusion to my perception of what Ents are.

Ah, well ...