Maiar in Middle-Earth

[ThingolOfDoriath]

btw. isn't it nice to have a good old fashioned discussion?

Actually it is. Especially since this is the only one that we have had that were directly related to Tolkien and not pints of bitter

And granted, webpages can be fallible, but then again Radagast, why are you infallible and what makes your single opinion superiour to that of a host of Tolkien lovers&readers?

At any rate, I think I see a pattern here.

Flame Imperishable, the Spirit! Which the Valar cannot create, for it is the Divine Spark, every individual is a part of the Flame Imperishable which Eru distrubutes at will. Once again, Valar can prolly create flesh, and the elements of Arda, but nothing you say makes me believe they can create the Flame Imperishable, that must be granted by Eru. Aule shaped and made the hosts of the dwarves, but he did not create the Flame for it rests with Eru, and only Eru can give it when he wants to.

Get my drift? Or do you still believe that Valar and Ainur can create their own spirits at will? That it is not a part of Eru? Eru had already planned the spirits of the world, the shape was the one already shown and used for inspiriation, it was used by means granted by Eru, the Humans were not Valars creation, the Elves were not their creation, and the Dwarves and Orcs were shaped by form but already had spirits, Dwarves were granted Life(flame), and the Orcs were already beings with their own life(flame) that already existed, but none of them would exist, and none of them would be able to be a sentient being had not Eru granted them their spirit.

So no I dont believe Valar can create spirits(flame), I do not believe they created the Great Eagles Spirits(flames) but perhaps their lesser cousins who (I still believe) do not posess Spirit(flame), but are mere animals.

You say that Valar cannot create sentient beings. Who then created them? When the Ainur entered Eä, there was nothing "and all was but on point to be made and yet unshaped, and it was dark."

The Valar did not create, humans, elves or any other sentient being yet they werent on the shapeless Arda either and they appeared out of thin air before they awoke in the East. How? Eru. Animals, birds and deers are one thing, they fall into the category of: "Are animals spirits or simply instinctual beasts?" Now, for the sake of argument, if animals do have Spirit, do can you really credit the Valar for the creation of the Flame Imperishable? or does the Flame belong and is used by Eru?

What sentient, self-aware, intelligent being(s) do you credit the Valar?

third group of spirits entering the world.

You are taking it too literal. I'm not talking about a huge group entering at once like the Teleri Elves or something. I'm saying that spirits, who were not Maiar(to their function or appareance), came from the outside under the duration of the ages.

Even Tulkas didnt arrive until later after Melkor had done much damage to Arda.

You show me that there are indeed spirits in the world, in the shape of hawks, but you present no evidence supporting the claim that they belong to a third group of spirits, from the quote they might aswell be creations or Mandos

By the same logic you have shown no evidence to support the claim that the Valar could create spirits(flame) at will, that every intelligent self-aware being besides the Natural Children of Eru were created by the Valar or Maiar. I find lots of texts with regards to how they shaped the landscape, but I cant find the original inventor of Grass, trees or even water. Where is the evidence they created it? And yet it didnt exist (perhaps rock did) when Arda was just a black Mesa so where did it come from? You cant say the Valar created it for there is no evidence.

The thing we can really say with confidence, is that the Valar had the power to manipulate it the above. Flesh, water, earth, rock, grass, trees... But I still do not believe that they could create Spirits, I believe that they could create a vessel for them and summon them from Eru, that I believe. And I also still believe that Eru sent spirits to Arda long after the Valar and Maiar entered, and for other purposes then the Valas

As you said, I can interpret the works as I see fit, but you are also interpreting the works in your own way. I find this way of seeing things fitting with the big "picture".

and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared." (Of Aule and Yavanna, The Silmarillion

Yeh...I used that qoute earlier..but I think it can be interpreted as the spirits coming from the Undying lands rather then from outside. Its an open interpretation though.

[Oromë]

Well whatever spirits were sent by Eru would have come from the Void and been of the race of Ainur. The Valar have set numbers, and so they would have to fall under the category of Maiar which were their lesser relatives.

Definition of Maiar from the book:

Maiar Ainur of lesser degree than the Valar (singular Maia).

Also Tolkien explicitly says that only Eru could create beings such as the Dwarves or Elves. Aulë created the Dwarves, but before Eru gave them life they were nothing but puppets.

And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him[Aulë]: "Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?"

[ThingolOfDoriath]

Well whatever spirits were sent by Eru would have come from the Void and been of the race of Ainur. The Valar have set numbers, and so they would have to fall under the category of Maiar which were their lesser relatives.

Definition of Maiar from the book:

Maiar Ainur of lesser degree than the Valar (singular Maia).

Also Tolkien explicitly says that only Eru could create beings such as the Dwarves or Elves. Aulë created the Dwarves, but before Eru gave them life they were nothing but puppets.

That would mean Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant are Maiar...which alot of people disagree on. So it is a pickle

[Falagar]

Well, Bombadil doesn't really fit into it - he wasn't meant to fit in and his very purpose (as Tolkien notes) was to be an enigma. I don't believe he had much with the Mythology to do at all, that he was some a character Tolkien put in as a memory of his more childish works and to have someone who spoke for the woods.
When it comes to Ungoliantë, the only info we have is that she came from the outside (as did all the Ainur) and that she apparently was very powerful. This may make her an Ainu.

The whole point is that she would have had to be created by Eru, and it doesn't seem likely that Eru would have created such a being after the Ainur without any purpose. She may have been a strong Ainu (though not as strong as the Valar). To quote the Silmarillion:

...and that in the beginning [Ungoliantë] was one of those
that he corrupted to his service.

Who did he corrupt to his service? The Ainur (Maiar, specifically). It is never mentioned any other beings that Melkor may have corrupted at that time.

[Radagast the Brown]

The Encyclopedia of Arda, like myself, is known to be fallible and at times out of line in its deviations from the sources.

Thats not to say that I am, though.

My main objection is that you are making this an almost theological discussion, as you say to make sense of the books. I don't need, not in life nor in fiction, divine explanations to make sense of the world: I simply stay with the facts that are given.

The "theological" facts of Middleearth as I see them:

- Before all was Eru.
- Eru thought the ainur and was joined in his song by them.
- With Eru as the composer and the Ainur as his orchestra he makes the ainulindalë which is in essence a songvision of the entirity of Eä.
- Eru bid the ainur enter Eä which is still void and commence the creation of everything.
- They create from the blueprints that is the song, Arda and all its creatures.

I have not read anywhere that only Eru can give life. It is true that the idea of life is his, and so to speak he has the copyrights to it. But yet Aulë as we know succeeds to create a race that wasn't even in the original song and give them life from his own lifeforce (granted to him initially by Iluvatar). I don't see why the creations of everything else in the world didn't function the same way only that when they were creating creatures that were already in the song the didn't have to ask permission.

As for who created what, we do not know, for all was in the music, to which all the ainur addd their bits and pieces. Yavanna in this fashion had aleady added the existence of the ents into the music before Eä was created. Only the dwarves were not in the song. Even the aberrations of Melkor were in the original music because of the discord he created.

And Iluvatar called to them and said: 'I know the desire in your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things be! And I will send forth into the void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall be; ..... But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should be contained and bounded within The World to be within it forever, until its completion, so that they are its life and it is theirs.

This I understand like this: Iluvatar sends the flame imperishable into the world to be distributed by the Valar according to the music. They receive the stewardship of it under the condition that they treat it as their own life, which in turn it also becomes. This according to my reasoning must be why we don't ever hear of any Valar needing to ask permission (save Aulë who gets it and Yavanna who doesn't need it) to give anything life.

I agree with Oromë that there are two possibilities when it comes to spirits either they are Ainur or they are creations of the Valar. It is not mentioned anywhere that there were any other spirits keeping Iluvatar companied outside of Eä. He only created the Ainur of his thought. All other creations have come from the song or been added to it. So if spirits entered the world after its creation, and they did, they will have had to be Ainur and since they were not Valar they will be Maiar. This does not mean that Tom is necessairly a maia, since he could be a creation mentioned already in the song and created secondarily by the Valar.

(I remember we had a very heated argument over the secrecy of the Khuzdul language;) so its not the first)

[Oromë]

I have not read anywhere that only Eru can give life. It is true that the idea of life is his, and so to speak he has the copyrights to it. But yet Aulë as we know succeeds to create a race that wasn't even in the original song and give them life from his own lifeforce (granted to him initially by Iluvatar). I don't see why the creations of everything else in the world didn't function the same way only that when they were creating creatures that were already in the song the didn't have to ask permission.

Yes but that quote I posted four posts up is Eru basically telling Aulë that he had only succeeded in creating a race of puppets that would act when Aulë willed them to do so. Giving something it's own life is something that only Eru could do. Aulë was unable to grant the Dwarves their own life and he presumed to destroy them but Eru took pity on him and it was through his power, not Aulë's, that the Dwarves were brought to life.

But Ilúvatar spoke again and said "Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein...

On a side note it seems a bit strange that Aulë created his own children and then completely forgot about them when the Elves came along. Those poor Dwarves must feel a tad unwanted.

[Falagar]

This I understand like this: Iluvatar sends the flame imperishable into the world to be distributed by the Valar according to the music. They receive the stewardship of it under the condition that they treat it as their own life, which in turn it also becomes. This according to my reasoning must be why we don't ever here of any Valar needing to ask permission (save Aulë who gets it and Yavanna who doesn't need it) to give anything life.

I agree with Oromë that there are two possibilities when it comes to spirits either they are Ainur or they are creations of the Valar. It is not mentioned anywhere that there were any other spirits keeping Iluvatar companied outside of Eä. He only created the Ainur of his thought. All other creations have come from the song or been added to it. So if spirits entered the world after its creation, and they did, they will have had to be Ainur and since they were not Valar they will be Maiar. This does not mean that Tom is necessairly a maia, since he could be a creation mentioned already in the song and created secondarily by the Valar.

Aulë didn't ask for permission - he simply couldn't make life. (As is seen by that the Dwarves only imitated Aulë.) Ilúvatar himself granted them their lifeforce. To quote the Silm. again:

[...] Now Ilúvatar knew what was done, and in the very hour that Aulë's work was complete, and he began to instruct the Dwarves in the speech he had devised for them, Ilúvatar spoke to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'

To take another example: Melkor himself, the (initially) strongest of them all, couldn't make life - only twist it to fit his purpose.

Edit: Cross-post with Oromë.
Edit: ...and missed the post where you've already quoted this passage. Sorry.

[Radagast the Brown]

By asking for permission I meant that he had created something that wasn't in the original song, but that Eru granted it life anyway, anyway that just makes me more right since no Valar ever asked for permission to create anything. They just did it in accordance with the song and Iluvatar didn't interfere. (and yes I have read the quote which has already been quoted multiple times. Iluvatar says that he Aule has given them life form his own being and there for they dont have separate wills but can only be controlled by him i.e. Puppets. What Iluvatar grants them is their free will and intelligence, life they already had, but that of a Golem)

You should rather consider some of my other points, since they are really good.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

and that in the beginning [Ungoliantë] was one of those
that he corrupted to his service.

That one I missed, my bad I need to update my PDF-searching technique

Now, Yavanna did ask permission for the creation of Ents...or rather, she told Manwë of her apprehension...(spelling sucks I know) about the dark age of Melkor and how it could possibly destroy her precious Nature. She asks:

Would that the trees might speakon behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!
'This is a strange thought,' said Manwë.
'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some
sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.'

The passage goes on with ErYou can read the whole passage on like page 20, although they arent called Ents, but Olvar and Kelvar.

Then Manwë sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Ilúvatar. Then it seemed to Manwë that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that though he had heard them he had not heeded before. And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.
Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: 'O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold!
When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held

As for who creates whom....here is perhaps a very vital "theological" question. Lets say you are a painter. You are shown a huge, marveously detailed sketched picture made by your teacher. Although a sketch, it is still etremly detailed and presice..(damn my spelling) You are given a task by your teacher to make this sketch on cloth as a full blown painting with all the details.

Is that really creation or is it forfillment of already existing motives and themes?

With respect, Aule were perhaps the only one to truly create something new that werent a part of the "sketch" in the first place. (Ents were in the song though)

It may be theoretical speculation, but as we are speculating, such questions and speculations must be examined. This one gnaws...(right word?) me and I cant let go of it as I cant find enough reason to.

As for Oromes and your two possibilities, I can perhaps compromise enough to draw this conclusion: Valar, means guardian of the World, Maiar are servants to the guardians of the world. There were only a limited number of Valar, this much is written, and an unknown number of Maiar. The Ainur group however, has both Valar, Maiar and the spirits that resided in Eä but later (decided or was sent) to enter Arda in various services NOT necessarily subordinate to the Valar as Maiar were.

Still a nice piece of speculation, but then again we have heard of VERY few maiar who actually made a (written) difference in ME.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

Argh, it took me 20 mins to compile my last post and then I find you've posted 3 times...If my post is out-of date then I apologise, I need to review it.

[Radagast the Brown]

As for Oromes and your two possibilities, I can perhaps compromise enough to draw this conclusion: Valar, means guardian of the World, Maiar are servants to the guardians of the world. There were only a limited number of Valar, this much is written, and an unknown number of Maiar. The Ainur group however, has both Valar, Maiar and the spirits that resided in Eä but later (decided or was sent) to enter Arda in various services NOT necessarily subordinate to the Valar as Maiar were.

No Ainur were ever sent into the world all entered of their own will. There is nothing to indicate that even the latecomers would not be grouped either as Valar or Maiar since these are the only two classes of Ainur in Arda of which we hear. Any way any Ainur entering the world later would be bound by the same condition of the first that they join their lifeforce with that of Arda, this would make them necessarily subordinate to the Valar who were left in charge of the fulfilment of the song.

Also the Ainur were free to add things to the song at their own will, such as did Melkor, and also Yavanna, this is why the paiting allegory is not relevant, the Ainulindale was a joint creation, (such as is always the orchestral creation: music), by the musicians (Ainur) and the conductor and composer (Iluvatar).

[Falagar]

With 'sent' he is refering to the spirits that inhabited the Eagles. (Who were indeed sent by Ilúvatar, probably by their own will.)

Also the Ainur were free to add things to the song at their own will, such as did Melkor, and also Yavanna, this is why the paiting allegory is not relevant, the Ainulindale was a joint creation, (such as is always the orchestral creation: music), by the musicians (Ainur) and the conductor and composer (Iluvatar).

Yet what life did Morgoth create? No life that we know of. As Morgoth's Ring poins out:

This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. In accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behavior of Orcs -- and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own in imitation or mockery of the Incarnates, he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets: his creatures would have acted only while the attention of his will was upon them, and they would have shown no reluctance to execute any command of his, even if it were to destroy themselves.

[Radagast the Brown]

I am yet to see a quote documenting that the spirits of the eagles were not simply a part of the creation, but instead late coming Ainur.

And as for what Melkor created we cannot know since we are not told which ainur added what to the song, I however am quite convinced that it must have been the Platypus and the leech.

[Oromë]

Not to mention the blazing heat and harsh frosts in some places of Arda.

As for this mysterious other group of Ainur, I see no reason why they cannot be classified as Maiar. They are lesser beings than the Valar and yet they are Ainur, which is the definition of a Maia. Not all of them were tied to a Vala. Even so most of the intelligent animals and plants that can be speculated to containing a spirit within their forms were in some way or another devoted to a Vala. The Eagles to Manwë, Carcaroth and Draugluin to Melkor, Huan to Oromë, and the Ungoliant(for a time at least) to Melkor. I seem to remember a quote Tsayn posted a while back that stated the Ent males were devoted to Oromë and the females to Yavanna.

EDIT: Have found the quote using search.

{Note added by Humphrey Carpenter} [The draft ends here. At the top, Tolkien has written, not very legibly, a note in pencil:]

No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulë in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwë) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna.

[Radagast the Brown]

But this is all mentioned in the Silmarillion. Nothing new in that quote.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

But this is all mentioned in the Silmarillion. Nothing new in that quote.

Yes but it does mean that the Valar had to ask permission to use the Flame Imperishable unless you have anything other than speculation to prove otherwise. Which makes their creation of intelligent sentient beings at will not as easy, for Eru seems touchy bout the subject. For the Dwarves it was something that was "beyond Alues powers" and for Yavanna she asked him for something that was already part of the song. Creating, Animals vessels (the sun and moon) or hosts for Eru's spirits He doesnt seem to mind that.

If the Valar held the Flame for Safe-guarding than it prolly means just that: to guard it, not to tap into it at will and with ease.

I am yet to see a quote documenting that the spirits of the eagles were not simply a part of the creation, but instead late coming Ainur.

And here we are again, same issue over and over again. Mankind&Elves werent part of any Valars creation, and yet they existed caus Eru put them there.

You have claimed that the Valar created every living thing including humans, elves and orcs and so on.

Elves, dwarves, men, ents, orcs, (and animals) etc. they are all creations of valar

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

And yet even if we didnt have the above proof that this wasnt true, we can always dig up the qoute were it says that the Valar were unwilling to go to war and possibly destroy parts of Middle-Earth were the Children of Eru rests until their awakening.

But is it beyond his power or beyond logic to send spirits in "third party" to Arda? Eru IS involved with the World of Arda regardless if it was already sung into being before they even entered it. For new things and situations appear for the Valar, such as the shape of the world that were radicly changed by Melkor eventhough his discord was in the song.

and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.

The hand entered in...and added stuff...in this was the same qoute that talked bout Yavannas Ents, and how spirits came and dwellt with them and inside them.

So why wouldnt he send spirits into Arda after the main host of
Valar&Maiar entered? Where is the ban that says it is not allowed for spirits to enter afterwards? Where is the logic to ban spirits from entereing to do Eru's bidding?

You claimed in your earlier posts that you do not think the Flame Imperishable were needed for intelligent creatures in animal form. You also do not believe that spirits housed in flesh can give a part of their own spirit to their offspring and thus carrying on the sentience and intelligence of their father&mother.

Melian, (that was the name rite?), who gave birth to Luthien WAS a maiar before she, in her heart, asked for permission to become a being of flesh and to give birth. And Luthien inherited alot of the traits, and even some of her Maiar mothers power, it is also stated that Arwen, who is a relative by blood to Luthien, had alot of the beauty of Luthien:

Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it is said that the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again; and she was called Undumiel, for she was the evenstar of her people.

(if elves say she looks like Luthien, I dont think they are exaggerating)

And yet wisdom, beauty, intelligence does carry on to their offspring as is shown by many legends of great and wise kings drawing their wisdom from their ancient bloodline. And relations by blood and what you can inherit from their forefathers were a vital part to Tolkiens story.

Later you claimed that the Valar&Maiar could create intelligent beings at will by taping into the Flame just as it was tap-water unless it wasnt a part of the Song, at which they could do what they wanted.

What creatures were that?

Just having intelligent forefathers does not make animals maia-descendants

You say that there is no proof that the spirits of the eagles were not part of the Third Group, and yet they obviously came from somewhere, and you ahve stated in your first post (between us) that you saw no evidence of Maiar ever being source of the Great Eagles or any other intelligent animal.

And yet you acknowledge (now) that there were spirits, and if they werent Valar or Maiar spirits, it had to be the third group, which you deny, or they created their own spirits, which they could not according to the Flame Imperishable which cannot be created merely distrubuted, and then only by asking, for there is no evidence of the valar creating all the intelligent creatures of the earth that did NOT have the Flame imperishable.

[Oromë]

The Flame Imperishable was set into the heart of the world by Iluvatar after the song so I don't think anybody had access to it save him.

[Radagast the Brown]

You seem to be either misunderstanding or wilfully distorting my arguments, while disregarding others.

Mankind&Elves werent part of any Valars creation, and yet they existed caus Eru put them there.

Eru put them in the song, the Valar oversaw and executed their creation as they did eveything living or dead in Arda. That is my story and I'm sticking to it (since nothing in the works have yet contradicted it).

You have claimed that the Valar created every living thing including humans, elves and orcs and so on.

Elves, dwarves, men, ents, orcs, (and animals) etc. they are all creations of valar

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

And I still claim that for all this quote says, which admittedly I had not noticed, is that Iluvatar added all his children to the song and the ainur didn't add any of them. It doesn't change the fact that the Valar were the ones who created them, along with everything else in arda. Remember that when they entered Eä it was void.

But is it beyond his power or beyond logic to send spirits in "third party" to Arda? Eru IS involved with the World of Arda regardless if it was already sung into being before they even entered it. For new things and situations appear for the Valar, such as the shape of the world that were radicly changed by Melkor eventhough his discord was in the song.

and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.

The hand entered in...and added stuff...in this was the same qoute that talked bout Yavannas Ents, and how spirits came and dwellt with them and inside them.

So why wouldnt he send spirits into Arda after the main host of
Valar&Maiar entered? Where is the ban that says it is not allowed for spirits to enter afterwards? Where is the logic to ban spirits from entereing to do Eru's bidding?

Nothing is beyond Erus power, but if the book doesn't say he did it he didn't. The history and creation of Arda has only changed once, with the addition of the dwarves, all else is in the song from beginning to end. The "hand" that entered only released things that were hidden in the hearts of the Ainur, ie. that were prophesised in the song but not yet fulfilled. There is no logic saying that more ainur didnt enter the world later on, I am just saying that if they did (and we do know a few did) there is nothing to suggest that they took shapes of animals or other weird things.

Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it is said that the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again; and she was called Undumiel, for she was the evenstar of her people.

Just having intelligent forefathers does not make animals maia-descendants

(if elves say she looks like Luthien, I dont think they are exaggerating)

And yet wisdom, beauty, intelligence does carry on to their offspring as is shown by many legends of great and wise kings drawing their wisdom from their ancient bloodline. And relations by blood and what you can inherit from their forefathers were a vital part to Tolkiens story.

Later you claimed that the Valar&Maiar could create intelligent beings at will by tapping into the Flame just as it was tap-water unless it wasnt a part of the Song, at which they could do what they wanted.

What creatures were that?

All of them.

I have never argued against the existence of genetics and biological inheritrance in middleearth. Obiously some people whom we know have maia ancestry must also have maia trait. My quote simply states that being intelligent for an animal does not imply it necesarrily having maia ancestors. My reasoning is this: intelligent animals must obviously have been mentioned in the song, and so there is no need for any spirits to possess them, they are siply creations like everyone else. The Valar could create at will any intelligent or non intelligent being or phenomenon as long at it was mentioned in the song (and according to me they all were save the dwarves).

You say that there is no proof that the spirits of the eagles were not part of the Third Group, and yet they obviously came from somewhere, and you ahve stated in your first post (between us) that you saw no evidence of Maiar ever being source of the Great Eagles or any other intelligent animal.

And yet you acknowledge (now) that there were spirits, and if they werent Valar or Maiar spirits, it had to be the third group, which you deny, or they created their own spirits, which they could not according to the Flame Imperishable which cannot be created merely distrubuted, and then only by asking, for there is no evidence of the valar creating all the intelligent creatures of the earth that did NOT have the Flame imperishable.

There is no proof or anything else to suggest that eagles were not part of the creation, and as such creations of the valar thought out by iluvatar and part of the song. I do not acknowledge that there were "spirits" unless these were a part of the song. Any spirit entering Arda will have to be an Ainu and fall into the classes of Valar and Maiar, for no other classes are mentioned. The valar could create spirits if their existence were not in conflict with the song.

We also have a different concept of the flame imperishable, (this I must admit is a purely theological dispute): You se it as a lifeforce only present in the primary children of iluvatar, elves, men, dwarves etc. To me it is the connected lifeforce of the entire world. The quote says " He sent the flame to be at the heart of the world" To me this means that all of Arda is permeated by the flame imperishable, which is the fuel of all life. To me plants and animals have equal share in the flame as do the children. To me the flames being at the heart of the world obviuosly mean that everyone has access to it.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

Eru put them in the song, the Valar oversaw and executed their creation as they did eveything living or dead in Arda. That is my story and I'm sticking to it (since nothing in the works have yet contradicted it).

It is surprising that the Valar did not know where the Children of Illuvatar slept before the great awakening or that not the greatest Creator of them all: Aulë, did not know the shape and form of that which you claim he and the others created.

and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.

And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind

I'd say thats a very freak coincidence that the Creators of the Children of Illuvatar, as you said they are , didnt know where they were or how they looked like. Your argumentation for the "Eru didnt create anything" theory is weak to say the least I'm afraid.

Yet it is told among the Eldar that the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn;

The Childrens coming....do you know how I interpret that? As in not of this world. Perhaps a better comparison would be the Second Coming. It doesnt mean "Second already-existed-on-earth-created-by-angels" but the second coming from the world beyond this.

Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.

Read that above qoute carefully, and examine the underlined statment. Eru himself sends new things into Middl-earth that was not part of the song, but things he inserts whenever he wants too. In other words, things outside the song exists in Middle-Earth.

And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been
busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty.

Once again, if they were indeed to create the Children of Illuvatar you would think that it would be mentioned in the music: "Manwë, father of the Elves" for instance. And yet they never heard of them. For as I have qouted:

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and free, wherein they saw the mind of Ilúvatar reflected anew, and learned yet a little more of his wisdom, which otherwise had been hidden even from the Ainur.

Once again, very strange that the Valar did not know the nature of the Children of Illuvatar, as can be expected when you are destined to create them.

And I still claim that for all this quote says, which admittedly I had not noticed, is that Iluvatar added all his children to the song and the ainur didn't add any of them. It doesn't change the fact that the Valar were the ones who created them, along with everything else in arda. Remember that when they entered Eä it was void.

But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark.

It is not a Void, it is unshaped, just as a piece of clay isnt shaped. A void does not exist, so it cannot be unshaped. Once again I must agree with what other people say, that there was matter in Eä, but not a Void.

do not acknowledge that there were "spirits" unless these were a part of the song.

I see...so in other words, the Valar did not exist. For they were not part of the song, so how could they exist? So no other spirits can exist unless they were sung into being by the Three Themes put forth by the Ainur? No of course not. Eru created them. And you havent got a single qoute to prove your statement that Eru does not create all the Spirits of Arda. I've got qoute saying the Ainur had no part in their creation or concieving of the Children of Eru at least, and you have only a vauge conception in your head which you try to forge into an acceptable Tolkien fact. From what I can see, your attempts look more like faith that would bring tears to any bible-thumpers eye. (edited out the paradox bit after doing a second-review)


As for the flame imperishable, I agree it is theological and we could head-but each other over that one being none the-wiser. But I do have one thing speaking for my case though. And that is the overly christian sentiment that ran through Tolkien when he found his inspiration for the Creation.

Dont get me wrong, when he said he didnt use Christian alleorgies (damn my spelling) I believe he didnt mean for Frodo to be Jesus and the Elves to be Jews or whatever. But as it is, you dont have to be Christian, jewish or even Moslem to recognise the very similar theories in Tolkiens Creation and the Abrahamic one. (this is just the part bout God, angels and spirit I'm referring too)

Unless I'm mistaking, the official view of the churches and mosques and synagoghes is that Mankind is Gods own creation, who were His because they were Spirits rather than animal and animal instincts and that there is a very distinct difference in Essence between animals and Mankind.

You honestly cant say that you think Tolkiens Catholic upbringing, his very devout attitude in letters did not influence his Creation. (the god& part, not the fantasy part with elves&hobbits and so on)

But once again, this is theological speculation, but since you havent gotten any better direct qoute from Tolkien himself regarding the Flame Imperishable, then I would like to claim that this above speculation is much more potent if we consider Tolkiens character and religous feelings.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

Ok Radagast, I think thats my 9th or 10th (long) post about this subject and I've honestly stopped enjoying myself.

So after we both have created more than enough posts to satisfy the most hardened of Tolkien-fan, I want you to round things off by naming the qoutes in the Tolkien-bookss that directly contradict the ones I've mentioned above in all my posts.

I want you to find support in Tolkiens work for your theories other than your speculations. I have given plenty of qoutes.

I also want you to give the page numbers to where it says that Eru did not create his own Children by his own hand and mind and laid them to rest in Arda long after Arda itself was finished by the hands of the Valar&Maiar.

I want to see where it says the spirits of Eru only came to be in the themes of Ainur, and even then I want to see the qoutes where it says the Valar created spirits, and not summoned them and that NO more spirits entered Arda afterwards.

I want to see the qoutes that say: "And so the Valar created the Children of Illuvatar with great labour...etc", for that and only that can counter the qoute where it says:

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

For I have qoutes that both say and strongly hint otherwise to your speculations, and your objection to those qoutes arent with counter-qoutes, but your speculations based on your conviction of the opposite of what both I and my qoutes say.

If you find the qoutes I ask for then we can start over again, if not, then I think we have speculated enough for one topic.

[Radagast the Brown]

Thingol of Doriath: While we are both in our manners of debate arrogant, condescending and extremely stubborn I think you have crossed a few lines to what is allowable when it comes to putting words in the opponents mouth. I feel that I have had to spend more time defending myself against things which I haven't said or which I have said in a different way or meaning than that in which you have interpreted them, than I have been able to develop my actual points. Every new post of yours have been an attack on some new level rather than that which I was trying to discuss and I feel that in this way I have been coerced in to discussing subjects in which I have little or know knowledge and/or interest.

As an example in you previous post you misinterpreted or twisted my saying that "no "spirits" exist that weren't part of the song" into me postulating that the ainur were non existant. What I meant was of course that there exist Ainur who were created first as a thought of Iluvatar and then there is everything else which was only concieved as part of the song. Thus if there are "spirits" then these are either Ainur or a part of the song. If spirits as you say then entered arda and took shape of intelligent animals then they would have had to be Ainur, and not nameless spirits. On the other hand there is nothing preventing spirits from being created as part of the song, just as there is nothing preventing intelligent animals form being created as part of the song. There are many other examples of what I have said being misrepresented by you.

As for your demands which I find merely pathetic in their selfrighteousness I will concede you this:

I have in my arguments lost track of my actual knowledge and gone beyond what is justified by the works. You have presented quotes that were, if not entirely new to me, then at least deeply buried beneath other garbage in the lumberroom that is my mind, and which clearly falsified things I have said in relation to the creation account.

Thus: you are right. Iluvatar created his children without interference by any of the ainur, who merely shaped the world and some of the things in it although which things exactly isn't made clear. There are no quotes contradicting this.

However the root of our argument was this: is it or isn't it justifiable to assume that intelligent animals in Arda are somehow inhabited by "spirits" originating from outside of Arda?

You arguments as to the justfiability has so far been these: it is mentioned that spirit hawks flew from mandos halls, and it is mentioned that other spirits (ainur) entered arda at a later stage than the first Valar and Maiar. This is all correct but is at best circumstantial evidence.

My argument is this: intelligent animals do not need a "spiritual" explanation and do also not receive one in the works. It is true that it is a possibility but it is not in any way a necessity in order to understand their presence in Arda. To me talking and intelligent animals is simply a literary device that has been used as far back as there has been fiction.

That about sums it up for my part. This is the disagreement it all started out with and I still feel that i am very much justified in my argument. As for the longer detour the debate took into the creation account and discussions as to the exact creator of various things, the presence of other spirits than the ainur etc. I regret that I did even embark upon it, because I clearly ventured out too deep. I thank you for finding the relevant quotes which of course I will not contradict.

The problem with the original argument is that it cannot be solved by quotes unless new ones surface, because it is built on a crevice between quotes. It is neither said that it is, nor that it is the case, that ainu spirits inhabit the intelligent beings of middleearth, it is a question of what one finds plausible.

I still find it wholly implausible, mainly on literary grounds. I do not see a need for it since the stories as written can stand very well on their own without such and explanation (I had not even given the presence of talking animals a thought before this argument commenced, to me it is a part of the premises for this genre of literature that animals may or may not talk). Whereas you seem to find it not only plausible but likely, on grounds that seem to have to do with the overall cohesiveness of the middleearthian mythology.

I hope you can accept this last representation of our fundamental disagreement and accept my offer of, if not a peace treaty, then at least a cease-fire. Arguing with you is rewarding inasmuch as it pushes the limits, and calls for new scrutiny of the works. It is also painfully annoying and I think I am right in supposing that I push your buttons as much as you do mine (which is a lot) and this is what leads to the generally hostile tone whenever we two begin an argument. I for one am happy that through your stubborness I have learned or refound knowledge about the creation of Eä, which otherwise would probably have remained hidden for me at least til my next reading of the Silmarillion.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

Before I say anything else I should perhaps clear a few things out before moving to the core subject.

Yes I'm a stubborn asshead who fights tooth and nail to achieve my objective(s). Its something I'm working on to improve...or rather to dissaprove. And yes I'm condecending, arrogant and prolly a whole lot more other stuff u didnt mention.

I do have a few words to say in my defense though.

Perhaps the most critical of all is that a text-based forum is one of the most impersonal way of having a debate. It's impersonal, from my point of view, because I cant actually see your face or even hear your voice which is a critical thing when discussing anything. For one it reveals if there is true hostility or anything sinister behind the opponent, but if its just text on a paper every little word is analyzed with nothing else to go on but your "impression" of the formulation of the text. I need not tell you, there is a huge margin of error when giving judgement.

To perhaps better explain what I mean with the above, I should mention one of my impressions I have had of you these past (two) years. Although I dont believe this now nor right before we started this latest debate, I was under the impression that you Radagast: were a smart-assed, Nietchze-reading tired-eyed cynical intellectual dude who thought himself as having every answer to every question ever asked. A leftover from the Grunge era, a nihilist even.

I want to strongly point out that I do not think this now and far from it. But yeah, at one point I did think all of that of you, eventhough those last two impressions mentioned where made when I wasnt in a good mood. I got those impressions after witnessing more then one comment from you. (honestly cant remember which ones but it was a long time ago and took some time to formulate) Although of course my opinion did change over time though as I witnessed more and more of your convos, not to mention our own debates. My more recent view of you has been as an adversary...not an enemy but just a person I can respect, but still hold at a healthy distance from. (to be frank, you and I debate more than we chat bout the weather and football games) And I can also admit that I feel competetive in general when debating with you. I dont mind scoring victories over you eventhough I cant remember a single one rite now.

You no doubt have your first impression of me that werent as flattering considering how I can behave during a debate.

This of course leads me to the core of my attitude. It's no secret on this board that I have no special love for people who are too engulfed with their own opinion and self-righteousness. Perhaps the most obvious is that of (more than ordinary) religious dudes&dudettes that I come across the net and in general.

You can see for it yourself in my last posts, I got really aggrivated with what I percieved as blind faith without reason. That sort of attitude is for me like waving a red sheet to a bull...(eventhough they arent aggrevated by the colour red but who cares)

When you said in yer last post that I've "pushed your button" and you've prolly pushed mine you have no idea how right you are. For some reason, I'm simply a bulldog when engaged in debates with people of the above mentioned sort. I dont know what, but nothing in the world gets me so aggrevated and pissed off when debating religion with an unbending fanatic of any kind of conviction, poltical, religious or wherever such extreme arrogance and ignorance is encountered. And sometimes it doesnt even take a fanatic, but simply a person who shows (in my head) too much arrogance with little to back it on.

Something snaps in me when I try to debate with people who are too unflexible and too stubborn to even slightly remotly consider that they might not have all the answers. That lack of reason and flexibility just makes me wanna grab the perp by his neck and slap some sense into him. (never actually done it though.) In some cases this happens later that in a convo rather than early, I've never thought of you as a fanatic or extremly arrogant though.
Of course this is worst when we are talking the really extreme religious debates. (and I've had a few of those elsewhere on other boards though not here)

But, here is the core of the matter...I cant drop that attitude and simply "let things be" if I encounter them elsewhere even in the most remote of forms, I cant keep my cool and objectivity when confronted by them. That is what I saw in more than one of your post, especially in the part bout Eru creating his Children. Had we begun with the Children of Eru talk earlier in this thread I prolly woulndt have snapped as easily...or perhaps not at all. When I posted that last post I was at the end of my patience and temper. I wasnt in the best of mood either, I simply saw you as another stubborn arrogant dude who I had to defeat.

And yeah, I know my own arrogance when debating is prolly enough to aggrevate the general populus. If I had the opportunity I would debate religion with the Pope and insult every christian congregation on Earth. In a second word of defense, when I'm confronted, with what I percieve as arrogance, I fight it with equal amount of it, not relenting and not subjecating myself.

So thats basicly it.I'm not out to get you or make your life difficult. I debate with strong passion and prolly take it all way too serious. But I do enjoy debating things with you for the most part excluding our latest posts.

So yeah I accept yer peace offer, eventhough I think the war was drummed up by both sides and not really a war in itself. I'll keep my head on my shoulders next time. As for the last piece of spirits of eagles argument, I*m not gonna contest it, at least not now for I havent got anything new to add. Perhaps that part is also a good example of what you mentioned when you said you spoke too soon without researching certain things. I honestly thought when i began mentioning the Eagle bit I had every qoute I needed and that there was more. I was certain I've read it in the Silmarillion. Instead it wasnt as clear as I thought...bummer I guess. I'll make sure I read on the subject next time.

So, I'm glad this argument is out of the way. That is if you accept my explanation and...somewhat of an apology for being overzealous.

Oh, one last thing, regarding this:

smart-assed, Nietchze-reading tired-eyed cynical intellectual dude who thought himself as having every answer to every question ever asked. A leftover from the Grunge era, a nihilist even.

If you are thinking that qoute was a bit TOO thought out you are not mistaking. This is another one of those ironies you experience in life I guess. A few years ago I was on a game forum and basicly just discussing game stuff and teh occational general topic. Much like this forum except with games rather than LOTR. As with any other forum there was a core of veterans from the opening of the forum and this was no exception. One amongst those veterans were a dude who I had the (mis)fortune to debate with.

This guy, were a complete jerk by any standards and even the Amish would have gone Mike Tyson on his ass. The thing was he kept up this attitude of pissing in everyones face and speak basicly negative, depressing, "I dont give a fuck so why should you?" posts. But every veteran poster there loved him for some reason. At first kept out of his way avoiding him and nothing he said in my posts upset me. I was getting somewhat disturbed by his attitude though, and he didnt show any signs of relenting. At first I thought it was a side-show, that he did it for kicks or something else, but it didnt take long to find out he really was like that full time. And then one day I saw a post from a dude who had a son the other night and naturally wanted to share the joy. So what does this mystery dude do? Congratulate him on his new bundle of joy? Nope! He starts the negativity machine and says "oh the hell that awaits him" and "why do you even bother to send a child into the world" and lots more which I dont think would pass censur.

Thats when I snapped and got really pissed off at the guy. I started counter-posts asking him why the hell he spewed out all that crap for in the first place, and instead of simply replying sourly as I expected he would, he started a full blown intellectual debate. He dragged up just about every reason why life isnt worth living and how pointless it is and why there is no reason for him to care bout anything. He never did answer my question bout why he couldnt just shut up and not talk in posts if he couldnt say anything better. Unfortunetly I couldnt make him see any kind of sense and some of the veterans even backed him..(moderatly)

I got fed up and left the forum. The irony part of it was that he was a nietczhe reader, a nihilist according to his webpage, he had indeed a smart-ass answer to everything he was asked...and he was Danish.
Actually for a few weeks on this board I thought you and him were the same person. (hehe)

[The Necromancer]

Well I have to say I really enjoyed your arguement - I won't say who I
side with. But I think you are both more similar than you think.
If you were in the Pony, I think you'd be playing pool together - argueing
whose round it was.
The thing with ME is that there is so much to it, and so much that wasn't
said or only hinted at, that enthusiasts can apply their own thoughts and
even experiences to try to make sense of it. Sometimes that will lead to
a disagreement. Who is right? Another person might have a totally
different take on things and say you are both wrong.
Pig-headed? Both, yes. But what an entertaining arguement!
I'll see you both in the Pony!

[Radagast the Brown]

I was under the impression that you Radagast: were a smart-assed, Nietchze-reading tired-eyed cynical intellectual dude who thought himself as having every answer to every question ever asked. A leftover from the Grunge era, a nihilist even.

You may not realise how close to the truth that statement is, or rather would have been just a few years ago, which is why I can't take offense from that assumption.
I do consider myself an intellectual, I have read a whole lot of Nietzsche (although I have never considered myself a nihilist). My smartass answers speak for them selves. And I have been a part of several mediocre danish grunge bands in the nineties. I do like to think however that I have grown and continue to grow, and that I slowly am exchanging my fanatism and selfrighteousness with tolerance and understanding of that which differ from me.

I understand completely your debate attitude and what it is that makes you tick, it seems to be the exact same things that works on me. Thanks for another good argument which again we suceeded in ending without a call for swords or pistols. Now lets head over to the pony for that game of pool: its your round Thingol!

[ThingolOfDoriath]

Sounds good to me. I was a nirvana fan myself though but I never learned to play an instrument.