Maiar in Middle-Earth

[Sons of Fingolfin]

At the time of the war of the ring, how many maiar were still in ME?

I can think of Sauron, Saruman, The Balrog, Gandalf, and Radagast.

Are there any others

[Radagast the Brown]

tom bombadil.... and of course Allatar and Pallando although we don't know where.

[Tilion]

Other Istari who may have entered into ME (subject to debate)
Shelob (once again, subject to debate)
Ulmo who never fully removed his powers and presence from of ME (I know, he's not a Maia)
Ungoliant (her being one is, once again, under debate. We don't know when she consumed herself)
And, since Radagast didn't feel like writing it in large letters, Tom Bombadil (subject to debate)
hmmmm. . . I'll try to think of others

[TulKas]

Ungoliant and Shelob are not Maiar

[Oromë]

Yeah Shelob is her daughter, so even if Ungoliant was one she'd be half Maiar/half random spider.

[TulKas]

Ungoliant was in Arda before any of the Valar (or Maiar) arrived. It's on one of the first pages of the main text of The Silmarillion, if I'm not mistaken

[Sons of Fingolfin]

There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and
thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not
whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda,
when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those
that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all
things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of
Oromë, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards
the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.
Quenta Silmarillion pg 76.

I got the quote for it.

[Elanor the Fair]

wouldn't Goldberry, the river-daughter, be one?

[Oromë]

If you wanted her to be I guess, but Tolkien left that up to the reader. Anyways, no more on the subject. bd might hear us.....

[Tilion]

This is why I said that it was subject to debate.

[topiary gent]

Thought Sauron was maiar.

[Oromë]

And when did we say otherwise? In fact the very first post lists him as one.

[Tilion]

Can the spirits sent from the Void to inhabit the (original) trees and eagles to make the ents and super-eagles be considered Ainur. I don't think they're listed as such, but is there any proof against it.

[TulKas]

I don't really recall if the term Ainur was restricted only to Valar and Maiar or if it encompasses all immortal spirits (other than Elves, of course)... That's a good question

[Falagar]

The Ainur were all the "first born" of Ilúvatar, if I'm not much mistaken. Conserning the Eagles and Ents: it's never mentioned by Tolkien what they were, but Ainur is the logical conclusion. (Though Tolkien isn't always logical, as any "Who is Tom Bombadil?" thread-reader would know.)

As for Ungoliantë, I'm not sure what she would be but I've always held her as one of the stronger Ainur.

[TulKas]

The Ainur were all the "first born" of Ilúvatar, if I'm not much mistaken. Conserning the Eagles and Ents: it's never mentioned by Tolkien what they were, but Ainur is the logical conclusion. (Though Tolkien isn't always logical, as any "Who is Tom Bombadil?" thread-reader would know.)

As for Ungoliantë, I'm not sure what she would be but I've always held her as one of the stronger Ainur.

Earlier in this thread it says Ungoliant was not of the Ainur. Eagles and Ents were creations of the Valar, and therefore also not Ainur.

[Falagar]

No, it says she descended from the darkness outside Arda. Says nothing of what she is, only that the Elves knew not. The Ents were sent by Eru, if i'm not much mistaken, and the Eagles were servants of Manwë but it is never stated that he made them as far as I know.

[Fionwe]

As far as I know Eärendil slew Ungoliant, and that was before ME ever existed, so she can't possibly be a maiar in ME

[Tilion]

I think you're confused, considering that the Silmarillion says that Ungoliant devoured herself (probably before Earendil was even born)

[ThingolOfDoriath]

The Ainur were all the "first born" of Ilúvatar, if I'm not much mistaken. Conserning the Eagles and Ents: it's never mentioned by Tolkien what they were, but Ainur is the logical conclusion. (Though Tolkien isn't always logical, as any "Who is Tom Bombadil?" thread-reader would know.)

.

I believe it is mentioned in the Silmarillion that the Great Eagles, the intelligent sentient servants of Manwë came in spirit form from the outside. As for the regular smaller breed I dunno. But horses had a "Father" so to speak, even Hounds had a intelligent father it seems...or maybe they were created to look like already existant animals...and I'm crosseyed now..

[Radagast the Brown]

I had a biology teacher who whenever someone started a sentence with "I believe..." would exclaim "Don't believe! You must know! This is biology not religion class!"

Please elaborate statements that contradict canonical knowledge (such as ents, eagles and mearas being maiar) with ample quotes.

Just having intelligent forefathers does not make animals maia-descendants. It is a leitmotif in the entirity of Tolkiens works that everything was better, stronger, smarter, faster, wiser, greater, and bigger in the past (because the further back in time we go the closer we come to the creation and thus to the divine) and has degenerated to its present state. The fact that horses had an intelligent forefather is merely an example of this, as are the other examples that you gave. I certainly don't recall any places in the silmarillion mentioning great eagles or ents as having maiar ancestors.

[TulKas]

As I recall, Ents were created at the request of one of the Valier as a counter to the Dwarves... You know, to keep some harmony in nature's wonderful balance

[ThingolOfDoriath]

Just having intelligent forefathers does not make animals maia-descendants.

Well since "Manwës eagles" is a coined expression, not to mention the fact that it states clearly that spirits in Eagle and Hawk form roamed Middle-Earth on Manwës bidding, I dont see a conflict. I also never stated anything bout spirits being Maiar or Ainur as you suggest. I suggested Spirits, which existed outside Maiar or Ainu "parameters". Ungoliant doesnt seem to be a known Maia or Ainur. Perhaps Tom Bombadil should be mentioned also?

As it is, the only difference I can see between a intelligent spirit and a Maiar/Ainur is the amount of power and knowledge it possesses. The ones who were "primitive" so to speak, such as the Valarukar seemed to be guided more by raw instinct rather than obvious intelligence, and yet they had intelligence and were governed by it when it became necessary. The Great Eagles were obviously never world-shapers and creators such as the Ainur/Maiar, but they sure were apart from animals and they knew the Powers that ruled the World and the "background story" to it all.

Huan was born in Valinor and also were aware of the Powers and of the World in general. Ents were in all likelyhood aware of their mission given to them by Yavanna, the First Lady of Arda, as the protectors of the Trees.
They too would be aware of it all.
In order to be clear that there is a difference between Maiar and spirits in general I can perhaps mention a few details bout the various races and animals.

Spirits in
the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depthsof the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world. Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda; yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwë and the servants of Manwë, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay.

The Ents:

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.

Once more we see spirits summoned from Eru and entering "vessels" and yet, no mention of Maiar just "plain" spirits.

As for Huan , all animals I've read about that were classified as animals didnt have the intelligence and selfawareness as Huan, Thorondor and others has. Where as humans, dwarves, elves, ents, the intelligent eagles all had intelligence and selfawareness in the shape of "pure" spirits that came not in Maiar form or Ainur form, not manifested themselves as Maiar&Ainur did at teh beginning of the World, but simply in Spirit form direct from Eru himself.

The Father of Dragons: Glaurung, had intelligence not produced from the mind of an animal, but from a self-aware spirit who was not labeled as Maiar but was labeled as a Spirit however evil. Even the huge iron-monsters that attacked Gondolin had spirits infused (or simply inhabited) the iron bodies and they prolly werent Maiar either, but in all likelyhood intelligent as Glaurung was.

See what is mentioned about Thorondor on the Encyc of Arda:

Perhaps the greatest Eagle of them all simply died of old age, but his mighty body carried a spirit sent by Eru, so perhaps, just possibly, he flew back to his master's halls on Taniquetil and still soars in the airs of the Undying Lands.

Not to mention the Eagle Gwaihir that Rescued Gandalf from Orthanc, he was intelligent enough, and yet there is a distinction between common non-intelligent animals and Gwaihir, and he wasnt a Maiar and he wasnt 6000 years old either. His forefather was an intelligent spirit that came into Arda and took the shape of a Great Eagle.

So there are alot of spirits in work in the world and they had important duties that no animal could accomplish. Imagine Middle-earth without beings such as Ungoliant, Shelob, The Ents, the Eagles, Dragons (and Drakes I pressume).

[Radagast the Brown]

So what you mean is that if an animal is some how intelligent/important and/or has something to do with a vala it is a "spirit"? How then are we to discern between "spirits" and all the inherently intelligent lifeforms in middleearth? Or is your spirit definition so broad as to admit that all lifeforms are in essence a "spirit" that has taken a certain shape? If this is the case I could be persudaded to agree with you otherwise not.

I just assumed that your earlier arguments were somehow related to the rest of the thread in which it is discussed which beings in middleearth are maiar and which aren't. On that backgroun I assumed (wrongly) that by "spirits that entered the world and took shape" you meant maiar. My bad.

I don't think there is much ground for your spirit theory within the framework of Tolkiens works. The fact that some individual animals or monsters are imbued with grater lifeforce and intelligence than others I don't think can be ascribed to a non-defined spirit akin to the Ainur inhabiting their bodies. To me it is a thread that runs through Tolkiens works that some members of a group will simply posses much greater power than others, for reasons unknown, and they also therefore have greater responsabilities and greater impact on the history of the world.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

As it is, I believe that the difference between animals and intelligent
beings has to do with wether or not it has a selfaware spirit or not. By
self-aware I mean sentient and interacting with the world on a level
beyond simple instinct but by presence of ones Self and not just someone
talking through it.

I do believe that animals of Middle-earth, not obviously
intelligent and self-aware, are not really spirits in the "true" sense of the word.

The true sense of the word in my book, are spirits such as Valar, Maiar,
Humans, Dwarves, (orcs), the Great Eagles, and just about most things
that fits the profile. The differences are in power, knowledge of the
world, and ability to shape the world by themselves. (other when it is
permitted by Eru)

It seems, (if you permit me to use that expression without biting my head
off for lack of literal sources) that when the Valar and Melkor&Sauron
created beings they did not have sentience. The Dwarves which Aulë
created had already been inbued with spirits directly from Eru after he
gratned Aulës wish of becoming a father. The orcs, eventhough it is still
a bit of controversy, used already existant beings with their own
spirits, and infused (already existant evil spirits) directly into either
newly created or old hosts.

Trolls which were created by Melkor, (and later "models" by Sauron),
didnt have their own life but merely "borrowed" from the spirit of Melkor
and later Sauron. (as I understood it) and when they were both banished
the Trolls couldnt function as anything but animals.

There were intelligent trolls who obviously had some form of spirit, prolly passed on from their forefathers who were imbued with evil spirits, but the cave trolls and war trolls didnt seem to have much in the form of individuality. What made trolls vicious killers who wore armour and
fought both elves and Mankind were the driving spirit of Melkor&Sauron,
not animal instincts. (I've never heard of a grizzly bear using a sword
and shield when charging)

I believe that intelligence that a sentient spirit carries can transfer
it biologicly to their offspring, giving a part of their own spirit to
the offspring which will have self-awareness. The Great Eagles seems to
fit the profile if we examine all the great eagles of "The Hobbit" , "LOTR" and "Silmarillion"

If this is true, then there is no conflict in how the All-father of the
Horse could produce offspring that would be intelligent, self-aware and
could carry that sentience to their future offspring. After all,
shadowfaxe didnt seem to be a beast of burden but more as a respected
intelligent equal. (wouldnt put him in Parlament though) Likewise with
the Great Eagles and their intelligent offsprings, the Ents and other
beings.

But if it is like you say it is, that only a selected few of the animal
kingdom are sentient because Eru wants them to be sentient to aid
someones quest, then we can argue.

Granted, Eru and everything that he has created, which includes animals,
came from him directly, but the theory that everything that lives MUST
have a spirit or a shared spirit is debatable. What is instinct and what
is spirit?

Is animal instinct a set of programmed variables in the brain of an
animal that makes it function, eat, sleep, breed, care for their young?
or does every little movement, every little look of an eye, every bite of
grass have direct origins in Spirit?

Difficult questions for anyone to answer. We have been trying to for
thousands of years. Not sure what the Catholic (Tolkiens) view would have
been, but if it were doctrine that animals held even a part of the spirit
of God then I would imagine they would have encouraged vegetarianism at an early age.

[Oromë]

Well an intelligent animal is not always the sign of a divine spirit. It's sometimes the result of a divine power's influence. Huan was such a great hand due to his being raised by Oromë in Valinor. His rival, Carcharoth was nothing but a wolf-pup in Angband until Melkor took him under his wing and turned him into what he was. Perhaps a similar thing happened with the eagles of Manwë.

[Radagast the Brown]

Now this has turned into a very intresting philosophical debate, however not connected to Tolkien or the subject at hand in any way. Of course everyone is entitled to make his own speculations about the metaphysical nature of middleearth, but they will remain that: speculations.

There is nothing in the literature indicating that Tolkien in his writing paid any mind to these metaphysical matters. Rather I would say he meticulously designed middleearth and the mythological grounds for it, to avoid such things. Everything that needs a reason is given one, and a few things that don't are left as "mysteries".

For the most part talking animals in middleearth are not mysteries, but are explained simply by having a special upbringing, special heritage or being smarter than the rest of their species. Just as with men and elves animal races have their exceptional individuals. (remember there are many examples of talking animals in the works, from ravens to dragons, and even talking swords and wallets)

Elves, dwarves, men, ents, orcs, (and animals) etc. they are all creations of valar, there is no reason in separating any of them out and calling them to a lesser or greater degree: "spirited". At least not a reason given within the canon.

The only quote I have been able to find that might justify your speculations is this of the maiar:

"Their number is not known to the Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Iluvatar; for though it is oherwise in Aman, in middleearth the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men."

Of course this quote could be taken to mean that anything remotely strange in middleearth is the doing of invisible maiar: every talking hound and every moving tree. But to me that would be a great injustice to the world of Tolkien which is necessarily full of inexplainable magical things, because that is the nature of a good story.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

I understand what yer saying and yes its all nice speculation, but I still think you are confusing Maiar with Spirits. Or rather, you still think that whenever I say intelligent spirit I say Maiar, I dont. And thats one of the points.

A vala in my head is a being with great power and insight and is Ainur.
A maiar in my head is a lesser being that is Ainur and came to Arda to serve the Valar.

Those two orders we know of for certain.

But then we have the third group: spirits of various intelligence, ranging from the intelligent spirits that (as we have proven) would form the Core of Manwës great eagles, to the simple sprite or fairy...I think Tolkien had a few mentioning of fairy like creatures. (Note to Tsayn: HELP!)

There are lots of "primitive" spirits that has both animal instincts and intelligence at the same time. Maiar such as Gandalf, Sauron and Saruman, (when they were in Valinor), by contrast doesnt have animal instincts but are "pure" beings of spirit, in the "Maiar" category of Ainur.

The difference between Maiar and the third spirit group can be said to be that of mission. Every Maiar that entered (seemed) only to be a servant to help the Valar and do their bidding. But in my head, the Third Spirits that roamed Middle-Earth, were in the majority not tied to the Valar in the same way. They were independant and helped when asked too but lived their lives in ways such as animals would do and retained animal instincts next to their intelligent spiritual ones. They were the ones who came directly from Eru with perhaps their own purpose of life on Arda.

I still think Gwaihir is a good example. Obviously intelligent, but I dont think he visits Valinor in standard bi-pod Maiar form, I dont think he picks up a paycheck from Manwë Incooperated either , and I dont think he eats his food of dinner-plates made of Mithril but rather hunts for his food, kills it with his animal claws and eats it raw just like all his ancestors (prolly) did before him.

Thats how I draw the line between spirit-groups in my head at least. Maiar and Valar were "civilised", pure beings of Spiritual energy, highly intelligent and sentient mind, compared to the third spirit group that wore the shape of animals or beasts, lived according to how animals do, were independant except on requests of assistance, and yet intelligent and sentient.

[Radagast the Brown]

Tolkien never mentions these "spirits" at all which is why I don't take a stance as to their nature, I simply don't belive that the idea of their existence is in any way justified. We know for sure that the two groups of spirits that entered arda upon its creation were the Ainur who took shape as Valar and Maiar. We know nothing of any other spirits entering the world ever. How then can you introduce a third group?

Why are you so bent that "intelligence", "self awareness" etc. is a phenomenon that needs a "spiritual" explanation? Why not accept the more "normal" explanation that the Valar, who as we remember shaped arda itself, were simply capable of creating sentient, intelligent, selfaware beings.

And as to having "proven" anything as to the nature of the great eagles, I for one must say that I remain thoroughly unconvinced.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

Spirits in
the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depthsof the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world. Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda; yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwë and the servants of Manwë, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay.

Silmarillion disagrees (above)

Perhaps the greatest Eagle of them all simply died of old age, but his mighty body carried a spirit sent by Eru, so perhaps, just possibly, he flew back to his master's halls on Taniquetil and still soars in the airs of the Undying Lands.

, and so does Encyc of Arda. (above and below)

Radagast qoute:

We know nothing of any other spirits entering the world ever. How then can you introduce a third group?

The mighty Eagles of the Elder Days were more than mere birds, they were gigantic, intelligent creatures. Thorondor, the greatest of them, had a wingspan of thirty fathoms (55 metres, or 180 feet), and spoke with Elf-lords as an equal. Beings like this first appeared after the awakening of the Elves, when spirits sent by Eru entered the World and inhabited certain of its living things (the Ents first appeared at about this time, for the same reason). 'Ordinary' eagles, of the kind we still know today, must presumably have predated the arrival of these spirits.

And regarding the Valar creating sentient beings of their own. Eru said to Aule when he created the Dwarves, which I assume belongs to your idea of sentient being, that:

Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when

The valar seems to be able to craft hosts of flesh, but not the "Divine Spark" so to speak for that rested soley with Eru and the Flame imperishable.

Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched
from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.'

And seriously, absolutely no disrespect intended, but if people such as the ones working on Encyc of Arda has come to the conclusion mentioned above, then I are more inclined to trust their judgement then yours. I maintain that there were three spirit groups: Valar, Maiar, and the Third Group.

[Radagast the Brown]

You are, as I have said before, free to believe whichever interpretation of the Works that you find most appealing.

The Encyclopedia of Arda, like myself, is known to be fallible and at times out of line in its deviations from the sources. If you don't believe me ask Zakath.

There is no truth in these matters other than that which may be found in the works. I have upon rereading the Ainulindale, Valaquenta and the beginning of days still not found any mentionings from Tolkiens pen of a third group of spirits entering the world. These must be solely on the account of the authors of the Encyclopedia, perhaps drawn from non-canonical sources.

You show me that there are indeed spirits in the world, in the shape of hawks, but you present no evidence supporting the claim that they belong to a third group of spirits, from the quote they might aswell be creations or Mandos.

You say that Valar cannot create sentient beings. Who then created them? When the Ainur entered Eä, there was nothing "and all was but on point to be made and yet unshaped, and it was dark."

Of course they could create sentient beings along with everything else they created, the only difference between the dwarves and the rest was that the dwarves were not a part of the original plan. You also seem to contradict yourself when you first say that Valar create only hosts of flesh and afterwards (correctly)quote Iluvatar telling Aulë that his beings (in whose creation Iluvatar had no involvement at all other than having at one point created Aulë)are already sentient. The flame imperishable of course comes originally from Iluvatar but that doesn't mean that the ainur cannot themselves create and endow beings with pieces of that spirit, which they also hold themsleves.

btw. isn't it nice to have a good old fashioned discussion?

[Tilion]

"Then Manwe awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwe said: Kementari, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared." (Of Aule and Yavanna, The Silmarillion)