Saurman knew about Narya?

[Navigator]

I think I remember a thread awhile ago asking why Saruman didn't take Narya from Gandalf when he had him captive in Orthanc. The answer was "Because Saruman probably didn't know Gandalf had Narya." This made sense, until I was reading this:

And the Grey Messenger took the ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and bregrudged it, and this was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest."

So, if the very reason Saruman hated Gandalf in the first place was that he knew Gandalf had received Narya, why didn't he take it from him when he had him in Orthanc? I really doubt it was because he "forgot" about it. Any ideas? Maybe the ring clouded Saruman's mind?

[Iluvatar]

Saruman was after the One Ring, and Narya was an Elven ring, so maybe him wearing one of the three while after the One wouldn't have worked well, wearing a good ring while hunting for an evil ring. If you catch my meaning

[Cirdan]

"Unfinished Tales", eh? We could try and wriggle out of this but it would be pointless. Yes, it would seem that Saruman knew about Narya.

[Ruth]

I wonder if the reason Saruman did not take the ring is because the elvish rings were never corrupted by Sauron, and could therefore not be used for evil purpose?

They were used to slow down time and preserve the beautiful things the elves cared about, which would not be helpful to Saruman in particular. I don't think they could be used to control others for example, although they obviously made the wearer more powerful.

[Navigator]

Hmm....I don't know. If the Elven Rings couldn't be used for evil, Gandalf, Gladriel, and Elrond sure went to a lot of trouble to keep them secret. I am sure either Saruman or Sauron could have twisted them to evil uses, they seem to have a way of doing that to most anything.

[Ruth]

You're right, I did not think about the fact that they did keep them secret...

[Curse of Mandos]

if sauron had the three he would be unstopable, the power of the elves would all but be diminished and sauron would have complete mastery of the earth.

[Elessar]

if sauron had the three he would be unstopable

Actually, if Sauron had just recovered the One Ring, he would have also been unstoppable. Even Galadriel admitted that their rings would be no use against Sauron and his ring. Sauron, with the One Ring, would have been able to finally locate the 3 Elvish Rings of Power and take them down. THEN, ME would be his, although I would say the Elves seem to diminish in ME only. Once in Valinor I assume that they become energized and noble again.

[Curse of Mandos]

true, i remember gandalf's account in 'the quest of erebor' that sauron delayed his attack on lorien and rivendell from dol guldur and that was a fatal mistake, his power and strength were enough to take those provinces.

[Beorn]

Maybe he swallowed it for safe keeping. It is also possible that Saruman *didn't* actually know that he had Narya, this was just speculation of the scribes of Unfinished Tales. It's also possible that since the Elvish Rings were such a heavy issue that he left the Ring in Rivendell while abroad on menial tasks, so to keep something like this from happening. He probably would only wear it when he absolutely needed the power to "kindle fire in the hearts of the weary".

[Legolas Greenleaf]

Maybe Saruman thought his own little ring good enough, and evil like him so he didn't need Narya? I know, I know, I'm dumb.

[Folcwine]

I can imagine Chistopher Walken as Gandalf (a la "Pulp Fiction") explaining to Frodo where he hid the ring.

[ThingolOfDoriath]

I can imagine Chistopher Walken as Gandalf (a la "Pulp Fiction") explaining to Frodo where he hid the ring.

"I had this ring...up my ass for 4 years" haha, (cant remember how many years it was in the movie though)

[Legolas Greenleaf]

Maybe he swallowed it for safe keeping. It is also possible that Saruman *didn't* actually know that he had Narya, this was just speculation of the scribes of Unfinished Tales. It's also possible that since the Elvish Rings were such a heavy issue that he left the Ring in Rivendell while abroad on menial tasks, so to keep something like this from happening. He probably would only wear it when he absolutely needed the power to "kindle fire in the hearts of the weary".

I don't know, that may not be very likely, what about when he lights a fire on Caradhras, could he have done that without Narya, especially considering this quote of his afterward:

I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin

I assumed that to mean that he used Narya and everyone who knew of the fire would know that Gandalf was the only carrier of Narya. Call me crazy.

[Folcwine]

You're crazy!

[TulKas]

I don't think Gandalf actually carried the Ring with him until after he dueled the Balrog

[dried-mango]

Was the fact that Gandalf carried (or was given) Narya common knowledge though? I thought that his possession of Narya was a closely guarded secret known only to powerful friends like the other Elven Ring bearers. So hypothetically, Gandalf's use of Narya would not tell 'the whole world' i.e. his enemies that it was him behind the use of the ring. The forces of evil may have noticed a 'fluctuation' (for lack of a better term) in the fabric of reality but would they have ascribed the cause specifically to Gandalf, if they didn't know that it was he who carried Narya?

[ThingolOfDoriath]

Well...if Gandalf never told anyone, not even Saruman, and he wore the ring all the time then he maybe would have been "detected" by the other ring bearers. (maybe...just speculating

[Curse of Mandos]

I don't beleive Gandalf used Narya on top of Wethertop The 'fireworks' the Hobbits and Aragorn saw were just plain Wizardry and it was only a rune they found with Gandalfs initial and what Aragorn supposed to be a date. Im sure Gandalf could muster up a few sparks and scorch himself a rune without the hellp of a ring of power

[Zakath]

He certainly could: see the scene on top of Caradhras, where he wrote "Gandalf is here" across the sky by lighting their wood on fire.

No ring used there, just a word of power.

[Legolas Greenleaf]

That's what I just said... only I thought he did use the ring.... maybe I'm out of wack. Anyways I think he was mainly worried about Saruman knowing that he was atop Caradhras, IMO using Narya. But would you, if having possesion of an Elven-Ring of Power, never think of using it or taking it on an extremely perilous journey where you may meet countless enemies? I think not!

On the completely different note of Saruman not taking Narya at Orthanc, there are two possiblities that come to mind:
One: Either (Keeping 'The Mirror of Galadriel' close in mind) Saruman didn't think Gandalf had the ring for it was hidden from his eyes. Or....
Two: Gandalf, in fact, didn't have Narya on his finger and Saruman can't take something that isn't there.

[TulKas]

Saruman summoned Gandalf to Orthanc before the Company even reached Rivendell. Actually, before they even reached Bree... (Actually he was summoned before Frodo even left the Shire but I don't think he arrived there until after...) So perhaps Gandalf was keeping it in Rivendell...?

[Saruman]

saruman could not see the ring only frodo could see the rings. saruman made his own ring. anyway only gandalf could touch his own ring

[Curse of Mandos]

Not true, it wasnt his ring it was originally Celebrimbor's and then Cirdan's and although Saruman can be construed as a ring maker his rings were not of the same calibre as the Elven rings.

Anyone could see the rings, they were physical things and especially the Elven rings whose materials are described elsewhere on this board. I beleive Gandalf had the ring in Orthanc and had a strong enough mind to block any attempts by Saruman to read his mind and discover this. Having the ring wouldnt have given him enough power to escape Orthanc.

[Saruman]

saruman may have just locked gandalf in a room and did not think about the ring to busy doing other thing. gandalf ring was for doing good not evil I think you cannot do evil with the elf rings unless you had the ruling ring.

[Curse of Mandos]

A Maia can become evil with or without rings, take Saruman and Sauron and all the Balrogs for example. The one ring certainly exuded evil and obviously if in any hands would corrupt and distort and be doubly effective if combined with the one ring, i would imagine.

[Mithrandir]

The one ring certainly exuded evil and obviously if in any hands would corrupt and distort and be doubly effective if combined with the one ring, i would imagine.

And not only the ring, but the desire of it also corrupted. Witness Saruman.

[Curse of Mandos]

Desire of the ring and the wit of Sauron to use Saruman as a foe to the Rohirrim, distracting them whilst he wagered war on Gondor. Saruman desired the one ring but Sauron knew well enough he would not achieve his goal because he knew Gandalf was wiser.

[Mithrandir]

Oh, I don't think that Sauron knew of Saruman's search for the Ring. If he did find out, however, he probably would have done as you said. But a sword has two edges, and both can cut.

[Eârungath]

I am not certain about this, but...
Well, we all know that Radagast was master of the animals and could communicate with almost all of them...But, was Gandalf also able to do so? He spoke to a flying animal when he was trapped in the top of Orthanc...Maybe the elven ring made that possible to him??? Nevertheless, i doubt that Radagast was responsible for Gandalfs rescue - if that was the case, he would have sent the king of eagles right away, instead of just some little buggar who could do nothing but let other birds know of Gandalfs trouble...?

Eâ

[Curse of Mandos]

I think Gwaihir's rescue of Gandalf was more due to Gwaihir than anyone else. Maybe Gandalf was able to communicate with him in some way but the eagles far sightendness helped more than anything. This would also explain Gwaihir bearing Gandalf away from Zirakzigil after his battle with the Balrogs.

[Eârungath]

As far as i remember, Gandalf spoke to a little bird, that flew to him at the