The white concil's meeting place.

[kork dog]

Hey guys, where was the meeting place of the white council? I seem to remember knowing at one point, but I forgot and can't find it anywhere. I know it's dumb to post a new topic on just that question, so here are a few more.
1) how often did they meet?
2) who were all the members? I know that the istar and the elf lords were, who else?
3) why didn't they ever really act upon anything other then over throwing the necromancer (sauron) in mirk wood?

just a few questions guys.
thanks

[Cirdan]

It was in Imladris, they didn't hold the meeting on the regular bases but probably from time to time, when there was something important to discuss (they're not the friggin' UN, after all), no standing memberships...

[Elessar]

I think that they met on occasion just to discuss the goings-on in ME, but I can't remember any other actions that they performed other than driving out the Necromancer (wasn't he Tom Bombadil ?)

[Húrin]

Didn't Saruman delay them in kicking Sauron out of Mirkwood?

[Elessar]

Yep.

[Tsayn]

Didn't Saruman delay them in kicking Sauron out of Mirkwood?

To expand a bit on Elessar's "Yep", Saruman's motive was his assumption that the longer and closer Sauron dwelled near the Gladden Fields, the more likely it would be for the One Ring to resurface. Eventually, he had to give in or else reveal his hand.

[TulKas]

No, it was by his encouragement that they did it in the first place. He knew Sauron had discovered the location of the Ring (Saruman and Sauron both thought it was still in the Anduin) and Dol Guldur was located right on the Anduin, a perfect base of operations for the searching of the river

[Elessar]

That was all implied by the "yep."

[Tsayn]

No, it was by his encouragement that they did it in the first place. He knew Sauron had discovered the location of the Ring (Saruman and Sauron both thought it was still in the Anduin) and Dol Guldur was located right on the Anduin, a perfect base of operations for the searching of the river

Saruman was in no way encouraging or forthcoming. His treachery had already long begun. It was only after learning that Sauron's agents were actively searching the Anduin near the Gladden Fields, which he never revealed to the other Council members, that he agrees to the expulsion, and that was two years later.

For support of this, rather than quote it all, see ...

The Return of the King, 'Appendix B - The Tale of Years - The Third Age', the entries for the years 2850, 2851, 2939, 2941 and 2953.

[TulKas]

Well of course his treachery had already long begun; that's why he wanted Sauron to stop searching for the Ring. He was still considered the wise be all and end all so of course when he wanted Sauron to go the White Council agreed

[Tsayn]

But you're still implying that it was Saruman's idea to oust Sauron. The rest of the Council, especially Gandalf and Galadriel, wanted to do it 90 years before it actually happened. Saruman eventually had no other choice but to give in. He did not initiate the action at any time.

[kork dog]

We already had the discussion about Saruman's treachery. Check this link:
http://www.tolkien.cro.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=239
Thanks for the Ilmadris info!!!! I thought I read somewhere that the three elven ring bearers were members of the white council, as was Círdan.

[dried-mango]

Were the Wise and the White Council one and the same?

[Frodo_Baggins]

I always thought the wise simply refered to the wisest ME. Cirdan, Thranduil, Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, Galadriel, Celebron, etc. Mostly the elves of the Undying Lands and the Istari I suppose. Although it would also include the elf lords...just my thoughts...

[Zakath]

Michael Martinez has written an article or two exploring who "The Wise" are...you can find his stuff at http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/tolkien/.

[TulKas]

Methinks the White Council is (or at least was in the beginning) just the Istari, their leading being Saruman the White

[Tsayn]

Just some food for thought ...

1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador. The Westlands have peace for a long while.

[...] The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed. Eriador was cleared of the enemy, but lay largely in ruins.

At this time the first Council was held(*), and it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than in Eregion. [...]

(*) The text was emended to read "the first White Council." In the Tale of Years the formation of the White Council is given under the year 2463 of the Third Age; but it may be that the name of the Council of the Third Age deliberately echoed that of this Council held long before, the more, especially as several of the chief members of the one had been members of the other.

[dried-mango]

So, in effect the members of the White Council were not necessarily always the same people? It seems that the White Council did not comprise of certain individuals, but was rather the name of the gathering of Elven leaders and prominent Istari for the purposes of discussing important matters.

[TulKas]

Prominent Istari? I think all 5 of them were fairly prominent

[dried-mango]

Not so. By prominent, I mean those Istari who played a significant role in the history of ME and are mentioned in LoTR. Saruman and Gandalf were, IMO, more 'prominent' Istari than say, Radagast, if only because they were the most active Istari in shaping the course of events in ME as told in LoTR.

[TulKas]

Yet Radagast was at least named unlike some of the other members of the White Council... Anyway, I'm pretty sure Radagast has attended his fair share of Councils

[dried-mango]

Now that's an interesting point; did Radagast ever attend a White Council meeting?

As to the names of the other two 'misc.' Istari, I've seen names being tossed about here and there ('Pallando' (sp?) or somewhat) but IIRC, weren't those two names created by some games company ('Iron Crown Enterprises' I think) for their LoTR RPG, therefore making them not canonical? They also went so far as to actually name each of the Nazgul. Oh the heresy!!

[Tsayn]

[...] There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olórin to Manwë and Varda, Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna). [...]

IMO, the "core members" of the White Council, from both the Second and Third Ages, were Galadriel, Elrond, Círdan and Celeborn. Gil-galad is also at the Second Age Council, as is, I think, Celebrimbor. In the Third Age, add to the list Olórin [Gandalf] and Curumo [Saruman]. I don't think Aiwendil [Radagast] attended every meeting of the Third Age, but maybe the first one or two. Alatar and Pallando I doubt ever attended any. As for other Quendi, I think Glorfindel needs inclusion, and perhaps Thranduil. After that, it's up in the air for me.

Concerning the Úlairi, see the Nazgul Names? thread.

[Frodo_Baggins]

The members of the first council were (probably) Gil-Galad, Elrond, Oropher, Amdir, Galadriel, Celeborn, and Cirdan. The second council probably composed of Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Pallando, Alatar, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Cirdan, and Thranduil (Oropher's Son).

Whether or not Pallando, Alatar, or Radagast ever attended a meeting is debatable. However, I'm quite sure they were still standing members, even after the blue ones dissapeared.

As for Rivendell being the meeting place of the second White Council, it's possible that they always met there, but unlikely as this text suggests...

It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the "Halfling's Leaf" was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards remembered in a different light. The council met in Rivendell, and Gandalf sat apart, silent. but smoking prodigiously (a thing he had never done before on such an occasion), while Saruman spoke against him, and urged that contrary to Gandalf's advice Dol Guldur should not yet be molested.

-The Unfinished Tales, Part Three, The Hunt For The Ring, page 350

Taken by itself, the statement about Rivendell could lead one to think the second White Council always met there. But when you take in the full context of what the passage is saying, it implies that the Council met at Rivendell in 2851; but not always. I imagine they met often in Orthanc, Lorien, Thranduil's dwellings, Lindon, and perhaps even in Minas Tirith at times. Rivendell however, would be the ideal choice as it was in Hithaeglir at about a centerpoint in the West of Middle Earth.

On a final note, The Wise=The White Council.

Wise, The-The Istari and the greatest Eldar of Middle-Earth. 338-9, 344, 349. See White Council.

-The Unfinished Tales, Index, W, page 472

This also proves that ALL the Istari were in the council.

[Curse of Mandos]

It doesnt mean they all attended though. The exact contingient that made up the white council is impossible to guess. I think the council was probably a lot larger than a dozen of the 'wise' sat round a table and probably contained many Eldar i.e Haldir of Lorien, possibly the heirs of Isildur etc.

[TulKas]

Agreed

[dried-mango]

On a final note, The Wise=The White Council.

Wise, The-The Istari and the greatest Eldar of Middle-Earth. 338-9, 344, 349. See White Council.

-The Unfinished Tales, Index, W, page 472

This also proves that ALL the Istari were in the council.

Frodo, your evidence does not definitely prove that:
a) The Wise = The White Council
b) All the Istari were in the council

The reference to the 'White Council' entry (see White Council) in 'The Wise' UT index entry that you drew your quote from does not necessarily mean that the Wise were all members of the White Council. It simply means that the 'White Council' entry in the index contains information that is relevant or connected to the info presented in 'The Wise' entry.

While you may be correct in your assumption, my point is that the evidence you provided does not strongly support your view. For example, if the index entry titled 'Gil-galad' had the reference 'See Elrond', by your method of deduction that would imply that Gil-galad IS Elrond!

I hope you understand what I mean and I apologise beforehand for any offense caused.

[TulKas]

However the point about the all of the Istari being in the White Council still remains relevant given that the two are one and the same... Personally I'd say the White Council is just a council of the Wise, though not necessarily of all the Wise. Disagreeing with myself for a moment here, I don't think either Alatar or Pallando ever attended the White Council. Radagast may have attended once or twice...

[dried-mango]

In that case Tulkas, you've voided your first statement that all the Istari were in the White Council. If a so-called member of a council has never attended any council meetings or contributed in any way, can he/she still be considered a council member?

I believe that Alatar and Pallando were never White Council members, since IIRC the White Council's sphere of influence was the west of Middle-Earth, whereas Alatar and Pallando were sent 'east' to carry out their work. Therefore IMO they both would not have had any stake or say in the affairs of west Middle-Earth.

[TulKas]

If a so-called member of a council has never attended any council meetings or contributed in any way, can he/she still be considered a council member?

Sorry, but...

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

[dried-mango]

42

[TulKas]

42 woods? 42 trees?